Faith Before Finance: Turning Vision into Provision for Churches and Charities

Simon

:: 00:00

You are about to listen to 'Where Your Treasure Is...', the podcast where faith and finance meet.

Please note that the views expressed are our own and in no way represent any form of financial advice. And remember, investments can go down as well as up. Happy listening.

Bex

:: 00:24

You're listening to 'Where Your Treasure Is...'. And today we are coming towards the end of our season on churches and charities.

But today in episode eight, we're going to be looking at faith before finance and how you turn vision into provision. Simon, how are you feeling about it?

Simon

:: 00:44

Feeling excited about this one? I think certainly in the Christian charity sector, vision is critical to us. It's hearing what God is saying, it's working through it.

But there also comes a point, and will often come a point where provision becomes maybe a stumbling block or a challenge to what we're trying to achieve. And this topic will help us maybe put in place a framework to understand faith and finance when the faith is coming faster than the finance.

Bex

:: 01:14

You always make it sound so simple.

But I'm very much looking forward to this conversation because I think it's an incredibly live conversation and also there can be serious consequences for individuals and for people's faith if it is not handled delicately. So, Simon, where do you want to start today?

Simon

:: 01:34

I think a great place to start is with a principle.

I suppose it's a very spiritual principle and without spending a lot of time thinking about how to say this, when God calls you to some mission, to some purpose, then he also equips and provides you to achieve that outcome. And we start with that because what we shouldn't be doing is operating in blind faith. You know, I'll just do this because I think it's right.

There is definitely a sense of calling and discernment required.

But once that is done, once you know that God has spoken, once others have come alongside you and are supporting you in it, then we can have an element of faith that he is going to provide. But we can't just operate in that faith solely. There is a bit more that we have to do.

In fact, I went to try and find some Bible verses to try and cement this point in scripture and there are loads of them. I thought, wow, clearly God means this, he does provide for us.

But today we're going to grapple with some of the day to day rubber hits the road challenge of provision to meet your vision.

Bex

:: 02:43

Absolutely. Just as you were speaking there, I was thinking, you see that time and time again in the Bible.

And to rattle off some people who went through my head really quickly, I thought about Abraham. I thought about Moses, I thought about Joshua. I thought about Elisha and the widow with the oil.

I thought about the disciples, about Paul and how he was a tent maker alongside. And there are just so many different ways that God provides.

And so one thing I think when we look at the Bible is that, yes, God always provides, and it's not always the way we think it's going to be. So, Simon, how do we balance that with the sense of, I know God's called me to this. I know he will provide, but I don't know how he will provide?

Simon

:: 03:30

I'm thinking back to my early experience of being a church trustee, and I hadn't really got my head around some of this concept to begin with. I felt very faithful about the work the church was doing. I was so encouraged to have been invited to be a trustee of the church.

And I was just learning the role and responsibilities of being a trustee.

And it was a little while into that journey that as a group, we really verbalized to each other clearly where we felt our responsibilities lay as trustees. And the way we put it was this.

As trustees, we are responsible for the legal position of the charity and the financial position of the charity and the church. We're responsible for those things.

And actually we are not responsible for the pastoral care within the church, and we're not totally responsible for the vision and the faith, for the outworking of that vision within the church. We kind of, not separated completely the faith and the finance, but we weighed those two things differently.

There are those in the church whose job is to be faithful, to seek vision, discernment, outworking, practical, let's get this thing done. And there are others in the organisation whose job was to be - sensible hat on - do we have the money for this? Do we have the people?

Have we got a budget? Are we being good stewards of what we've given? And sometimes those two groups would meet. I'm not going to say they would clash, but they would meet and have to work together. They'd have to collaborate rather than compromise to ensure that the vision was being met in line with the provision that we had so far.

Bex

:: 05:20

And it's maybe a slightly odd comparison, but just the way you described it there made me think of a political system and the checks and balances that you have there, so that it's not one group completely running the show and, in this case, maybe the people of all the faith making bold decisions, or the people with all the finance actually preventing things from happening. But it's about that balance of power and checking in with each other on that.

Simon

:: 05:48

Well, I've mentioned this in the past, actually.

When you compare myself and my wife and how we operate our finances as a couple, we've come to this conclusion of how to describe nicely what we both do. I'm very good at managing money and she's very good at using money.

And to begin with, in our relationship, in our marriage, that sometimes meant we clashed. I was much more inclined to save and not to spend, and she was much more inclined to spend in ways that were sensible.

But I had to overcome quite a big hurdle to get to that point. I think within the charity world, and certainly the Christian charity world, it's a good way of describing different roles.

Who are the people who are good at managing money and who are the people who are good at using money? And they might not be the same people. In fact, I've come across many people who are enthusiastic, passionate people, full of vision, full of energy.

If you gave them money, they will get it spent in some fantastic way. The problem is they will just keep getting it spent until there's none left for anybody else.

And sometimes you need to rein them in and say, whoa there, we know you've got vision, but here's how much provision we're going to give you to run with it.

Bex

:: 07:05

Now, on the question of vision and provision, I've often heard it said that the way you know it's something that God is asking you to do is that you can't actually do that on your own strength or with what you're necessarily seeing right now in the physical world. And so with that in mind, what's the balance of faith and, you know, as much as we can be sure, because we only see in part, we've heard from God and we are going to follow this, and what is stupidity?

Simon

:: 07:38

I think that is such a tough balance to get right. There are times when we're called to do things and we're called to do things with the knowledge that we could do them.

But because God has already provided, he has given us the skills, he's given us the relationships, he's given us the confidence, he's given us the financial resource, whatever it means that he needs us to have, he's already provided and he's kind of waiting for us to get to work, go and do the thing I've provided for you to do. This is why you were made, with a perspective that sometimes the thing you're doing is not for yourself at all; it's for other people.

You are their provision; he has given you what they need. He's given you the skills and resources for them to achieve their outcomes and their goals.

Then there are those people who might operate somewhat recklessly in faith, which is, "I feel so confident that God has called me to do this. I'm going to run with it. And God will provide as I am going because that's what he does." And they have this fantastic level of confidence.

And I have huge respect for those people when they are balancing their confidence with an element of God accountability with those around them. It's like, "Yes, we believe in you. We think God is providing for you. You can run with this thing."

What is not a great outcome is to run fast and to fail big because you have not been resourced. And sometimes it's hard to say this. We don't know that until the provision doesn't come. It's probably easier to fail at the small scale.

"I tried it and it didn't work."

"What's happened?"

"Well, I feel a bit silly. Nothing really went too wrong."

As your charity and as your organisation gets bigger, failure can have much larger consequences.

And I think that's where we need to recognize those who have faith and are called and have vision also who have the ability to generate some of the resource by virtue of bringing people on board, and get that provision lined up before you commit to certain courses of action. There's a parable about the guy who started building a tower and then ran out of money. We don't want to be in that situation.

We want to be the people who say we want to build a tower. Is God going to provide? The people say, "Yes," the provision is made, the tower is built.

There are good ways of doing it, but it is a balance of stewardship and accountability, of faith and of finance.

Bex

:: 10:04

And I think on a personal level, that question of stewardship and, you know, maybe saving for that rainy day or putting money aside for certain expenses versus faith and generosity can be a real tension. I'm trying to think what I would do when I personally face that. And there is just a bit of wrestling with God, isn't there?

And asking the Lord, "I have this money. What would you like me to do with it?" And so I'm imagining on an organisational level it's like that, but bigger, with more voices in the mix.

Simon

:: 10:37

There certainly are more voices in the mix and sometimes they're very silent voices for a very long time.

Can you imagine being the champion of the vision, the person who stands up to the organisation, who declares what they feel God is calling them to do. They have discerned, they have sought counsel and guidance, they're feeling convicted and. And they speak. And then they wait.

And you're waiting for the moment when enough people get behind you and say "Yes," and not just "Yes, we'll pray for that," and not just "Yes, we'll help with that," but "Yes. And we've put our hands in our pockets; we've done our bank transfers, we've made our commitments; we are behind you and we're behind you with our wallets, with our purses, with our salaries, with our future finances." In that moment, you kind of get the confirmation of God's provision.

What I don't think is right is that we only ever operate out of what we already have. But I don't think it's right at the other extreme to only ever operate when we've got nothing. There is a something in between.

The bigger the decision, the more provision we have to have ready that we don't damage the organisation, the charitable objectives, relationships, people's very lives by being potentially reckless with their resources and not looking after God's resources that he's put into our hands.

Bex

:: 11:56

And I suppose there's also a challenge to us when we are giving to make sure that we are being intentional and deliberate about that.

The last thing we want to do is to say we're backing someone's vision, we're going to give £1,000 to help this vision become a reality, we're absolutely behind you, and then never actually give the thousand pounds which that person is then banking on coming through.

Simon

:: 12:22

And sometimes you want to give, you're ready to give, you're willing to give, but you then realise you haven't got the resources to give because, oh, you spent it on yourself or you gave it to a different cause that you weren't quite as passionate about.

And again, we've spoken about personal generosity in the past, how to live generous lives, spontaneous generous lives, but also those planned acts of future giving and waiting for the right moment when the call comes and I've got the resource. And we see that time and time again, especially in the New Testament, people's deliberate, active saving up in order to give and meet a resource.

And I firmly believe that God is part of that.

He might call us not to give to some things because he has something lined up and he's waiting for us to be asked in the right moment and then release that resource.

Bex

:: 13:12

That's a really helpful way of thinking about it. So it's not that God isn't calling us to give. The question is, what is God calling us to give to?

And so I suppose in all of those decisions, there's a sense of wanting to hold the vision, the money, every aspect lightly, and also stewarding it, being as diligent as we possibly can with, with every penny given, with every hour given by volunteers as well.

Simon

:: 13:44

And when you operate in a 'God will provide mentality', there's the risk that you become a bit reckless with the money that he has provided. "Oh, it's okay. God will give us more if we need it." We're not going to be quite as discerning about what we spend money on and when we spend it because you're testing God almost, rather than just trusting God. He isn't going to be faithful to us if we are not faithful to Him. Now, clearly that is not what the Bible says. The Bible says even if we are unfaithful, he remains faithful. What I mean by that is, will God bless our laziness, our wastefulness, our recklessness, our lack of discernment, our lack of good stewardship?

Why should he keep putting resources our way if we're not being good managers of what he's given us?

And on the contrary, if we are diligent and we are deliberate about how we manage the resources he's given us, the people who are volunteering, the people who we're employing, can we be good employers and good charity workers at the same time, then, my experience and my belief is that God is more likely to provide for us in the future when he sees us being those good stewards rather than being the wasteful ones.

Bex

:: 15:00

And what you've highlighted there is that if we're making a decision as a church or as a charity - it is not just us, it impacts, and it's not even just our service users, so to speak, that it impacts, but it is every single person involved in that process, whether they are people giving people, volunteering staff, beneficiaries, the list goes on. And so even just talking about it, I'm getting a bit of decision paralysis. And I'm like, oh my goodness, I don't know what to do.

I can't keep all these people happy. How do you manage it, Simon?

Simon

:: 15:34

We spoke last episode about putting in place certain processes and procedures, almost creating a business organisational structure for your charity.

What we have certainly done in the past and we operate now, is a structured budgeting process towards the end of each financial year for the charity. We ask different ministry areas to prepare and present a budget request for the year ahead. What do they feel called to do? What is the vision God's given them? Which ministries are thriving and need more resource? Which maybe need to stop because they've come to the end of their fruitfulness?

But knowing there's a finite financial resource, as we pool all of those requests together, someone's job is then to try and balance the books.

And it might be a case of, "Hey, we'd love to fund all these things you've requested, but unless everybody gives twice as much, it's not going to happen." - so, a layer of discernment that says we look at the outcomes of the ministries that we're operating in: "Which are the fruitful ones? Where is their clear leadership and vision? Where has money been spent well in the past? Where have volunteers been enthused and catalysed into doing greater works?

Those are the areas where it looks like God is moving at the moment. Where has God clearly spoken at a leadership level through prophecy, through visions and words? Oh, we think God's calling us into that.

And what things do we let go of? You know, you said we hold onto it lightly and sometimes we have to let go of things that we honestly believe God is not calling us to keep doing just because we always have. And then we might come down to it and say, "Right, we're going to give you a core budget of this much. And you've told us what your core goals are and you've told us what your additional goals will be if you were to have extra money. Start with the basics."

And we've had years in the past as a church when through the year, we found God's generosity being poured out on us.

"Oh, there's more money than we thought we'd have at this stage." Great, let's start to allocate into those areas where we know there is vision.

Sometimes we have to reallocate money. "Oh, it looks like that area really isn't being fruitful. It's not getting the traction we thought it would. Let's pull that money out of there and apply it somewhere else where we are seeing fruit."

Sometimes people have asked for money to do a project and the project never happened. They never got round to it. There was some stumbling block in the way. Don't leave the money sitting there languishing. Let's get it to work.

I'm an absolute firm believer in the resources that God has given us, he wants us to employ, to put them to work. They are there for a purpose and not just to sit for some future vision.

And sometimes that means conversations of, "Yes, you can have the money?", "No, you can't have the money." - but helping people understand in the wider context why we are making those decisions.

Bex

:: 18:22

Now, it wouldn't be an episode in this season without mentioning our dear friend, the charity regulator. And what I'm interested in here is how you fulfill your legal requirements alongside that sense of faith and trusting in what we cannot yet see.

Because I imagine when you're doing your annual report, you can't say, "And we're going to fund this by... faith!"

Simon

:: 18:48

I like the way you stop that sentence very abruptly there, because you're right, sometimes that is the answer. "Well, we've got no idea if anyone's going to give us any money next week, next month, next year. We believe they are because we have built a community of passionate people who are behind the cause that we're operating."

And for a charity, that's all you can do, really, is say, "We have a charitable objective, we have taken resources in, we have employed those resources and look at the outcome we have achieved." And hopefully you're going to satisfy the charity regulator. "Yes, you operated as a charity this year. Good job. Do you think you're going to do the same again next year?"

Now, the fact is, by the time the regulator even gets the report, you're most of the way through the next year anyway. So unless you can see your charity slowly winding down, shall we say, the resources are dwindling, the outputs are dwindling as well, you can report to the regulator, "Yep, we've had a good year; we're going to have another one, we think."

But you have an obligation - what you cannot do is recklessly use all the money and then find actually that, "Oh, we've got nothing left for next year," because you still actually have to wind down a charity if you realise it's not operating anymore - that's going to come with some cost. Who's going to pay that cost? It's going to be the trustees, if there's no money left.

Bex

:: 20:12

So, as we mentioned in our last episode, we love our trustees, we want to look after them. And so if it seems as if a charity is coming to an end, how do you end that?

Simon

:: 20:23

Well, I think if you have set up your charity well, then there will be a little clause towards the end of your charity's articles of association or memorandum or objectives, which will say something like this: "In the event that this charity is wound up or it fails, any remaining resource should go to..." and you might name another charity that's operating in the same space as you. You might name a class of charity that's doing the same kind of work. No charity is going to last forever. Nothing lasts forever; and the Lord returns - we're all off to heaven anyway, job done!

So if you see your charity is becoming less efficient, less effective, I think there's a huge amount of grace and wisdom in looking each other in the eye and saying, "Should we stop? Should we pass on this resource to another organisation that is doing the thing that we're trying to do, but maybe doing it better than we are?"

Or it could be the people run out - we no longer have the people volunteering; our trustees are getting old and tired; no one's stepping up to replace us - no comments, Bex!

And so is it the right time to gracefully step back, wind up well, and hand those resources on?

Bex

:: 21:35

You said no comments, but I was actually just going to start a coup there to replace you and then felt immediately stressed and thought, "Maybe I'm not cut out to be a trustee!"

One more practical question on turning vision into provision: obviously, in our own lives, if there is something really big that we can't afford, like a house, we might take out a loan and in that case a mortgage. Can you also do that as a charity? What does that look like?

Simon

:: 22:04

You can? Certainly charities can borrow money.

Again, you'd have to look at the terms and conditions of your charitable structure that ensures the trustees are allowed to do this.

One of the interesting things when you are borrowing money as a charity is that you don't really fit into the lender's classical assessment of affordability:

"So what is your income?"

"Well, we earn this much money. I say 'we earn' - we get given it, to be honest."

"Oh, you get given money. Who by?... Oh, how? Why?"

And they have to apply a certain level of discernment around, do they think you're a good risk - in other words, if they lend you this money, they're going to get paid back one day.

Now, with properties we know, for example, you can have security - if you fail to repay your mortgage, the property itself gets sold to repay the debt. Now, no one wants that to happen. The charity doesn't, the volunteers and the donors don't; and nor does the bank or building society either.

They want you to pay it back.

One of the things we found very, very helpful in the past when we've come to borrow money as a church and a charity, when people give by standing order, that regular, disciplined giving, it's what you might kind of call 'sticky money' - it takes effort to stop giving rather than it takes effort to give.

And when a bank or a lender sees regular money coming in by that steady, reliable source, they see it as a much more secure source of income and they are more inclined to lend against it rather than just, "Oh, we get some cash in the basket every week and we hope it's enough!"

Bex

:: 23:40

Absolutely. Now, I think at this point in the episode, before we close, it just makes sense to take a moment to pray.

I'm aware that there could be a whole bunch of people listening to this who have a vision or are maybe wondering what to do with that next. And so, Simon, would you be happy to pray for us?

Simon

:: 24:00

Absolutely. Let's pray.

Lord, we thank you so much for the work of so many charities, especially those within the Christian space, who are doing good works for your people and to glorify your name.

We pray for those who have vision to see some charitable work being achieved that maybe they're going to be part of, either in terms of their personal resource or their financial resource. Would you bring alongside those people those that can support them and encourage them, that can challenge them and hold them accountable; maybe bring together teams of people who can work towards the same ends. We know you love to work and change people's lives - you are a God who changes lives.

Would you provide vision for those you're calling and would you provide provision for those you have called that we can see good works being done in your name for your glory and transforming lives and bringing many to you. Amen.

Bex

:: 24:56

Amen. And if you've been listening to this episode and you still have questions, we would absolutely love to hear them.

And also if you've been listening to this episode or maybe listened to it a while ago and thought, "Oh, I'm gonna circle back there," we would love to hear stories of the vision the Lord has given you and then how he has provided for you.

And who knows, you may even get to be a guest on one of our bonus episodes!

Simon

:: 25:26

And speaking of bonus episodes, as we draw to an end of our core content for this season, we do have a couple of bonuses lined up for you.

So join us next time to hear from those who are working within the charity and finance space, and let's see if they agree with anything or everything that we have shared with you over the past eight weeks.

Bex

:: 25:48

Otherwise, we may just have to rerecord the whole season! We'll find out next time! See you then.

Simon

:: 25:54

See you then. Bye.

Bex

:: 25:56

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