S10 Ep2 Where do we Start?

Simon

:: 00:06

Welcome to 'Where Your Treasure Is...', the podcast where faith meets finance.

Bex

:: 00:09

I'm Bex Elder.

Simon

:: 00:11

And I'm Simon Glazier. Each episode we're going to explore how biblical wisdom can guide our everyday money decisions.

Bex

:: 00:18

We'll be looking at how we can give generously, save wisely, and navigate the complex financial realities we face.

Simon

:: 00:25

But remember, investments can go up as well as down.

Bex

:: 00:29

This is 'Where Your Treasure Is...'

Simon

:: 00:30

Let's get started.

Bex

:: 00:33

Hello and welcome to Season 10, Episode 2 of 'Where Your Treasure Is...' and this season we are talking all about money and me, or money and you, or money and us - depending on who you're having these conversations with!

Simon

:: 00:50

When you said there, ‘Season 10 Episode Two’, my mind went straight to Star Wars for some reason - you know, ‘Where Your Treasure Is…’ Episode Two: The Return of the, I'm not sure what… Budget, maybe - which would be a terrible title!

Bex

:: 01:04

Yeah, that's where I was going. Yeah, it sounds like something the Chancellor would do to try and make the annual budget a bit more jazzy and just get ridiculed for.

Simon

:: 01:12

Let's not compete!

Bex

:: 01:16

So, let's move swiftly on and talk about what we're going to talk about this episode. I am Bex; I'm one of your co-hosts, along with Simon. And this episode, we are really looking at where do we start with money?

Because I don't know about you, but sometimes the topic of money can feel so critically important but also so overwhelming with so many facets, that it's honestly just easier to think, 'As long as I've got enough to pay the bills, I'm not going to think about it any further.'

So, Simon, where do we start with the topic of money?

Simon

:: 01:49

Interestingly, I think that comment is a really good place to start.

People often don't ever start really thinking or talking about money until someone maybe challenges them to do so and they realise, I've got to this place in life without really deliberating - potentially would be a good word - about how I feel and think about money, and how I choose to manage money. We fall into habits, good and bad, and then realise what a massive impact they have on us and have had on us to get to where we are.

And, and so I think starting a thought process, a conversation about money, in itself is a good place to start.

Bex

:: 02:37

And that comment about habits is so true, whether we have picked them up from our parents, from our workplace, from our friends, from culture.

And just as you were speaking, I was reminded of Romans 12:1, & 2, where it talks about 'Do not be conformed to the pattern of this world', but to allow the Lord to renew your mind and your thinking. And we can often apply that verse to our emotions or maybe how we do relationships, or how we view certain issues; but I don't think I've ever thought of that verse through the lens of, actually, how do I manage and spend and save my money? And is it in accordance with what the Lord would do or what the world is telling me to do?

Simon

:: 03:19

I think it's maybe worth saying that there is no absolute right: 'This is the way the Lord wants us to use our money. If you're doing it this way, good, you're being holy and righteous. And if you don't, you are not.'

Because there are so many principles and so much teaching within the Bible, and that is then expounded on through church, through sermons, through small group teaching, through books, whatever else, that we have to absorb quite a vast quantity of information to distil our personal beliefs, shall we call them?

When it comes to money, I can't say you're right because you do this and you're wrong because you do this. The best to say is, 'Oh, I think you've got a very wise and mature approach to handling money in that way. That feels like good stewardship in your circumstance.'

We don't have a lot of right to speak into other people's situations unless they ask us to.

But we definitely have a challenge. The Lord asks us to be good judges, to discern right from wrong, and our conscience and the Holy Spirit within us can prompt us around how should we be using this resource which the Lord has gifted to us to use, hopefully, as his wise steward, his good manager, his good servant, and we will one day hold ourselves account in front of him, saying, 'This is what I did with what you gave me. Was it all right?'

Bex

:: 04:42

And quite frankly, wouldn't it just be so much easier if there was a clear right and wrong? 'Do this! Don't do this!' But that is not how God works.

Instead, as you described, he asks us to partner with Him and ultimately to trust Him with that resource that can feel so, so important.

So, Simon, how do we even begin to figure out maybe our values or our principles or the things that are going to guide our decisions about money?

Simon

:: 05:14

So, I think we're going to start with something really hard, actually, and on this occasion the really hard thing is not budgeting - because budgeting is often the really hard thing we talk about.

Bex

:: 05:23

That's a surprise.

Simon

:: 05:25

Budgeting is quite easy to do practically; it's just really hard to get yourself to do, put it that way.

We're going to take a couple of steps backwards. If we call budgeting, maybe the practical management of money, the practical stewardship of money, we want to go down a level to principles to begin with. And I would start with a sense of understanding belief. Many of our audience will be people of faith, and so your personal beliefs - when it comes to the Lord, your Christian faith and the Bible - will have an influence on how you approach the topic of money and wealth and resources.

With that in mind, we shouldn't separate the two. We don't have a conversation about faith and a separate conversation about finance. These two things are, at least according to Jesus - and I always trust what he says - then these things are hand in glove. They come together.

Start with belief. Just be aware that you have beliefs. Where have they come from? Have they come from your parents? Have they come from Bible teaching? Have they come from sermons and church? Have they come from friends?

Even question what those beliefs are. Why do I believe this about money?

We have just said there are no absolute rights and wrongs. But maybe you think there are. Maybe the way you've been taught and the way you've grown up, debt is evil - you should never borrow money. Maybe generosity is the only measure of financial success. I don't know. What are your absolutes?

And they're your absolutes, and that's fine. But where do they come from? Have you tested them? Can you trust them?

Can you justify them to a degree so that you know they are robust and they are tested and proven. And on those beliefs, we're going to build some values and some culture.

Bex

:: 07:05

So, it feels like really we need to start by interrogating ourselves. And it reminds me of the process that I do with some copywriting clients where we're working on brand communications and brand strategy.

And before you build out, you know, the website copy or anything else, you need to know exactly what this company is all about: what makes them different, who their ideal audience is, all of that stuff - because that is what builds the firm foundation that we can then build upon.

And so, what's next? We've maybe got our foundation in. Is it like the cornerstone? Does that go next? I'm clearly not a builder!

Simon

:: 07:43

Yeah. So let's start with belief. Then we're going to build onto that our values and the culture that we want to live by.

So, within that teaching, we could all possibly sit down and the three of us on this call - there's you and me, Bex, and there's Mike, our producer - we could sit down and we could build a framework of what we believe the Bible says.

But out of that, different aspects and elements would jump out to us. And it might be that for one of us, it's about investing in people and giving them opportunity for others.

It could be mission, and giving into mission - could be overseas, or it could be local mission.

It could be a passion for financial education.

Doesn't really matter what element it is, but we each take on board one or two or three principal key guiding values you can almost build your life upon and say, 'I'm going to make decisions in my life based upon this value.'

And what's happened in my life is that generosity has become a foundational value.

And it's by circumstance and by experience and experiencing generosity - seeing other people being generous; seeing the benefits of generosity. It is not everybody's guiding principle, but it is one of mine.

And so, as I approach life and when there are certain decisions to be made, certain choices, certain actions, I can come back and say, 'How do these choices align with my values, one of which is generosity?'

And it won't always be the overriding value. I can't give everything away - I'd have nothing left for food and for paying the mortgage and for the kids and whatever else. But it's a strong enough value for me.

Only when we have a clear sense of what those values are, can we measure for ourselves, 'Are we being true to things that matter to us?'

There's a great test called the rocking chair test.

Imagine yourself just a few years older than I am now, happily retired: the hair has gone fully grey, the top of the head is fully clear of all hair at this stage and I'm in my slippers on my porch, maybe rocking back and forwards in my rocking chair.

And I'm going to think to myself, 'Am I happy with the decisions that I made when I was a young man of 50?' And if I say, 'Yes, I made good decisions', I'm happy with those, they aligned with my values, the culture I was part of and wanting to create, I am a man of integrity - I was consistent in my choices and working them out.

If I don't know what those values are, I can't look back with the rocking chair test and say, yeah, I think I did what was right.

Bex

:: 10:08

And maybe if you are earlier on in life, you might find it easier to reverse-engineer the rocking chair test, which is kind of what I do, where I actually project forward and think, 'If I continue to live in this way, if I make these decisions, do I actually like the person who I'm going to turn out to be, or are there things that I need to change now in order to be the person I want to be at the end of the race?'

Simon

:: 10:33

Isn't that interesting that we can sometimes have that ability to project a destination?

And when we said at the start, if you don't start the conversation about money, you will find yourself in a place where you've never proactively thought, am I heading to the right destination - another great phrase is about, 'You can spend so much time climbing the ladder of success to reach the top only to find out it's leaning against the wrong wall!' First of all, find out what are you trying to succeed in, and then pursue it.

And so that element of foresight, of looking to the future and seeing what kind of person do I want to be - what would that kind of person be doing then and now? And can I start doing those things?

And sometimes it's quite simple. It might be a case of: I want to be a person who is going to retire one day, stop working, but still be able to give generously to my church and to charity and not be burden on others. To achieve that, I have to prepare for my own retirement as a younger person - it's a goal. It's a long way away, but you want to be that kind of person, so you'll take action.

Now, that's very different from, 'I want to be the kind of person who comes back from my beach holiday beautifully bronzed, no sunburn, thank you very much!' Because in the short term, that's a goal you can achieve, but is that going to make you happy in 20, 30, 40 years?

And there is this tension between the short term - what I want, what brings me happiness - and maybe the long term: what will keep me joyful and make me look back with a sense of, 'Yeah, I made some good choices.'

Bex

:: 12:11

And it reminds me of just that really challenging and profound quote from the actor Jim Carrey, where he says, 'I hope everyone could get rich and famous and will have everything they dreamed of so they will know that it's not the answer.'

So, with all of that in mind, we're thinking about our beliefs, we're thinking about our values and actually what we want our life to be about - where does the culture come in, Simon?

Simon

:: 12:35

So we live in a culture. We live in many cultures!

It could be the culture of our workplace, our education place, of our family, of the neighbourhood we live in, the town, the church; any group of people we find ourselves amongst have a culture - it is a kind of distillation of all the values that those people bring into that space.

And the widest culture, the whole societal culture, almost the culture of the world, has been moving, certainly in the West, in a direction of materialism for a very long time.

And that culture seems to say to us that money is a measure of success - the more you have, or even more importantly, the more you appear to have, there seems to be a sense of you showing the money that you have demonstrates how successful you are.

Money is a kind of score chart. That phrase, 'The person who dies with the most money wins!' But, of course, we know that the person who dies with the most money is still dead and can't take it with them! So, it doesn't seem to be a very biblical approach to a fully lived life.

Jesus came to give us life and life to the full. What that doesn't mean is the biggest bank balance possible. And so, we have to turn money on its head. Jesus was very good at doing this - to the rich young ruler: 'What you need to do is you need to give it all away.' That way, your heart will be released from this pressure of, money is the score chart: Money is my measure of success,; money is my comparison between other people and myself. How am I doing now?

That's not right for everybody. God doesn't say to all of us, 'Give everything you have away.' If we can hold money lightly as this thing that the Lord has given us, with an objective - as a tool - then we become people who can use money well rather than just accumulate or manage or save or count our money.

Some of those things we do need to do, but it comes back to your question of: Why? Why are you doing this with money? Why have you got money in the first place? Have you given your pounds a purpose? This money that you're spending, why? This money you're saving, why? This money you're investing, why?

And are those whys, are the answers to those questions, aligned with your values, your goals, your beliefs? Because if they are, you're living a life where you have integrity with your money - you are managing it; not, it is managing you.

Bex

:: 15:08

And money feels like it can just really sneakily get into our heads and suddenly our actions are changed - or maybe not, suddenly; the problem is that it's subtly - and then one day we wake up and think, 'Oh gosh, I've picked up this belief or this habit with money that I'm not sure I like.' And I know I've experienced that a number of times.

Particularly being self-employed and having the more volatile income, it is so easy to slip into a scarcity mindset of, 'Oh, well, I have to save all this money because I don't know what's coming next. I don't have a stable income,' or to think, 'Well, I don't have a boss; no one's going to give me a promotion, so how much I'm earning must be a measure of my value and my worth.'

And, actually, when you drill down into where those beliefs come from and the root of them, they are deeply unhelpful and they're not the thoughts that I want to be governing how I spend my money and how I use it.

But one of the questions that comes up time and time again for me, and I'm wondering if you can speak into this a bit, Simon, is how we balance sense and wisdom. I maybe think of that as stewardship - so, how I steward my money well, how I plan for future events and then spontaneity and generosity.

And how do I also be someone who the Lord asks them to give away X amount and I say, 'Yeah, I've already written the cheque.'

Simon

:: 16:31

I've certainly seen this done well and I've seen it done badly. Some of the bad experiences: those people who save, save, save, save, save because they're waiting for the moment when the Lord tests them. And now, with all that money you've saved, it's time to give it away. Because their hearts have not been practising the art of generosity and so they're closing themselves off to it - they never get to the point of feeling ready to give. They've made so much, they've accrued so much, they're stored so much, it's really hard to turn it around and give it away.

The idea of, 'You know, Lord, if I had a million pounds, it would be easy to give money away.' The problem is, by the time you get to having a million pounds, it's really hard to give money away unless you have been practising, practising, practising when you had nothing or far, far less.

Other ways I've seen it done badly are those who have recklessly been generous without the prompting of the Holy Spirit. This kind of testing, rather than trusting the Lord: 'I'm going to give this all away. Look at me being so generous. I've got nothing left. Woe is me. The church must now look after me because I've been generous,' when it was never actually God's intention to do that.

Now it's really hard to speak into those situations because who are we to judge what the Lord has called others to do?

But sometimes you can see in people's outworking of their generous nature that they're doing it to be seen and not doing it so that the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing, for example - not the perfect explanation of that scripture, but you can see my sense of those whose heart is generous also have hearts that are attuned to the will of God.

And so, thinking back to what I mentioned last episode about my wife and I talking about how might we build a structure of generosity, let's give an amount regularly in a disciplined way it's measured, it's reassessed on a regular basis so that we can have a disciplined level of generosity; but maybe also the freedom of what we've called 'planned spontaneity'.

'Oh, there is a cause... but we have got a bit of a budget set aside,' or to have that accountability partner when you feel the prompting of the Lord:

'I think we should do this thing.'

'Oh, that's a great thing.'

Let's assess that within a bit of stewardship context. Let's be wise as we let our hearts lead us.

Now, as a trustee of a church, that is one of the critical skills you have to bring to bear: a faith-led versus a stewardship-led output - let's not be so faithful that we're being foolishly reckless, but let's not be so wise with our money that we can never give a penny away.

I think this is a journey you do in community. You have thoughts, you have ideas, and then you communicate them with people you trust. It could be a significant other; it could be a member of the family or a close friend or a small group leader or a pastor. You say, 'I think this is how I want to behave. What do you reckon?' But bounce it back a few times, try it out for a season, develop it and be always open and willing to be wrong or to change your attitude towards generosity.

Stewardship encapsulates generosity as well. Really, It's a great word. It's why I use it quite a lot - it is both the using but also the giving, rather than two extremes and never the twain shall meet.

Bex

:: 19:52

And what just blows my mind about the Lord is that he knows how we work and our brains and our psychology far better than we do. And I was just thinking, as you were speaking, about some advice of starting small. And actually, isn't that what we see in the Bible?

I'm thinking of Luke 16, verse 10, where it says, 'Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much. And whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much.'

And it just struck me that - not to say this never happens - but it's perhaps incredibly rare or unusual for the Lord to suddenly, out of nowhere, say, 'Sell your house.' It's not to say we maybe wouldn't get to that point, but there would be multiple steps along the way because we do this as a journey and in partnership with Jesus, following Him each step; rather than the Lord suddenly turning around one day and being like, 'Oh, yep, changed my mind; let's do this instead!'

Simon

:: 20:47

He just takes us on a journey, a journey of escalating trust. If we can be generous with small amounts, then we learn to trust God in those moments.

And it helps us look back over a lifetime of, 'I did that, and it worked out OK. God was in it. I did that, it worked out OK.' And he is exercising our muscle of stewardship and generosity.

And I think it is a muscle that needs to be exercised in the right way at the right time.

Bex

:: 21:15

Now, Simon, we are coming towards the end of this episode. In our next episode, 'Do I need a spreadsheet?', I'm hoping the answer is going to be, 'No,' because I'm not the biggest spreadsheet fan!

Simon

:: 21:27

Oh, come on; generally in life, Bex, everyone needs a spreadsheet! They're just great!

Bex

:: 21:32

I will allow you to try and convince me! We're going to be looking at the practical outworking of this conversation in Episode Three, but is there anything else you want to add into the conversation about values and priorities?

Simon

:: 21:48

I think I'll just reiterate a passing comment I made: do this in community; I think it's really hard to do it alone.

You will have ideas you will have absorbed from those around you, from the culture around you - an attitude towards money. And when you find those trusted people, can you be the brave one who will open the conversation? 'Hey, can I talk to you about money? I'd love to hear, maybe not what you do, but I'd love to hear your opinion of what I do or what I'm thinking of doing.'

And that opens up a chance for everybody to be more genuine, wiser, to input into each other's lives, and hopefully we reach a conclusion of, 'Yeah, we are being good stewards of what the Lord has given us.'

Bex

:: 22:29

And so, dear listener, you can take that on as your challenge for the week: have a conversation with someone about money where you ask for their opinion on a particular aspect of how you manage your finances.

And if you do that, we would love to hear about it. Not so much the nature of your conversation; that might be a little bit weird from us to ask you to share that! But how did it go?

How did you even begin to start that conversation? Because even just hearing that people are having those conversations acts as a catalyst for more of us to start or continue conversations.

Simon

:: 23:06

And do feel free to start a conversation with us if you have a question about money and you're thinking, 'Hey, these are the guys who might have an opinion,'; we generally have an opinion when it comes to money, and we're quite free to express it.

But to get that information, to get in contact with us, do feel free to go to the show notes. Check out our Instagram account: @whereyourtreasureispodcast.

You'll find more information and some snappy excerpts from the podcast - and maybe some behind the scenes as well, as time goes by.

Bex

:: 23:34

Huge! And we will look forward to talking to you next time and finding out how we actually put these principles into practice. See you then.

Simon

:: 23:42

Bring on the spreadsheets!

Bex

:: 23:48

That's it for this episode of 'Where Your Treasure Is...'

Simon

:: 23:50

Thanks for listening. Let's keep learning to be good stewards of all we've been given.

Bex

:: 23:54

See you next time.