S10 Ep5 Let’s Talk!

Simon

:: 00:06

Welcome to 'Where your Treasure Is...', the podcast where faith meets finance.

Bex

:: 00:09

I'm Bex Elder.

Simon

:: 00:11

And I'm Simon Glazier. Each episode, we're going to explore how biblical wisdom can guide our everyday money decisions.

Bex

:: 00:18

We'll be looking at how we can give generously, save wisely and navigate the complex financial realities we face.

Simon

:: 00:25

But remember, investments can go up as well as down.

Bex

:: 00:29

This is 'Where your Treasure Is...'

Simon

:: 00:30

Let's get started.

And so here we are again. It is Simon and Bex behind the microphones for Season 10, Episode 5 of the 'Where your Treasure Is...' podcast.

And this one we have entitled, in the ‘Money and Me’ theme, ‘Let's talk!’

Bex, hey, let's talk!

Bex

:: 00:50

I have no problem with talking. It's actually one of my favourite pastimes. And even more so, I love a conversation about a potentially awkward topic - I think it's the former youth leader in me! I thrive on those, ooh, squirmy moments.

Is that what you've got in mind today, Simon?

Simon

:: 01:09

I'm thinking, is it one of those moments where, oh, yeah, the squirmy conversation comes up and all you do is deflect: ‘What do you think about that? How would you answer that?’ I can imagine you doing that, Bex!

Bex

:: 01:19

You can try and pin me down today if you feel like I've gone politician on you!

Simon

:: 01:24

Well, this is our faith and finance podcast, and to be honest, we could probably pick faith or we could pick finance - we might well pick both of them today, but let's dig into just talking money!

And we've done this in the past - we've talked about talking money, about having conversations. But I want to pose the question really today, ‘Why? Why do we find it uncomfortable talking about money?’

And maybe it's just me, maybe it's only me that finds it uncomfortable. I get the impression others do too. So, give me your opening thoughts - why is money such an awkward topic to talk about?

Bex

:: 01:59

We've talked about the youth leader version of me; maybe this is the language side of me - my immediate thought is I'm fascinated to see if every culture finds it awkward to talk about money or if that is specific to us as British people. I suspect it's not just us, but, from my perspective, it feels a bit awkward because you don't want to come across as boastful; you don't want to come across as nosy or overstepping a mark by having that conversation. And ultimately, it feels like it's been instilled in us from quite a young age: you don't ask someone their age; you don't ask them their salary; you don't talk politics, death or taxes.

Yeah, those are my initial thoughts. Do you have anything you want to challenge on that, Simon, or add to?

Simon

:: 02:46

I certainly agree that we find ourselves in the society in which we have grown up. And I see in people around me who've come from different backgrounds, maybe different parts of the world, money is just treated very differently.

It's a much more open topic. I'm not necessarily convinced it's always a more healthy topic. So, for example, I've got some friends who come from an Asian background and to display their wealth, possibly through jewellery, through cars, houses, even through education almost, is just part of what they do. And I certainly don't feel naturally inclined to do that. But I'm a product of my upbringing, my society, my experience.

And I think maybe in the Western culture that I've grown up in, we've gone too far beyond the polite conversations about money to, ‘Let's have no conversations about money and just hope it all works out,’ which unfortunately it doesn't really do!

Bex

:: 03:46

And it is so much harder to figure it all out if you're doing that in a vacuum and in isolation as well, as it is with any issue or topic. And, Simon, I feel like we are probably people who have more conversations about money than most. That's not a brag. That is the reality of the fact. We both own businesses; therefore, there is a sense of obligation or necessity around those conversations or to engage in it more, because there's not the fixed salary and, also, you're a trustee - and so, in that role, you're also used to talking about other people's money.

So, how do we start and why should we talk about it? And how do we get over the awkward feeling?

Simon

:: 04:29

I think what you've made there, Bex, is a nice, interesting point. There are certain places in society, in our culture, where talking about money is totally acceptable. So, you mentioned business. I think it is really common for money to be used as a proxy for the success of a business. You know: ‘How much are shares worth today?’; ‘That business has boomed. It's taken on a new contract.’; ‘They've made this much money this year, which means it's going to pour into the economy or they're going to pay tax or they're going to employ people.’

Money is a metric that is used almost as a shortcut towards how well a business is doing. But we see it also in places like politics. Money is just the central topic of politics: about taxes, about budgets, about how much the NHS costs, or defence spending, or education. So much of what politics does is manage a society's and a nation's money. And we're quite comfortable saying our piece and criticising other people's opinion on money and how it should be used and raised.

And, then, you have maybe the famous - thinking the sports stars, the actors, the actresses - you think, ‘Oh, we're happy talking about their money’: ‘Did you hear about that new film that came out and made this many hundreds of millions?’; ‘Or that new contract - that person got snapped up by that team for this many millions!’

It's part of almost societal conversation until it gets to the personal: ‘So, what about your money situation?’ or ‘What about my money situation?’ - and suddenly the barriers come up!

Bex

:: 05:57

I was literally just thinking as you were speaking, ‘Why are those easier to talk about?’ I think it's because they feel a bit remote and distant, isn't it?

And, also, a lot of the time we are talking about such big sums of money that it doesn't feel real. ‘What's a billion here or there?’ can be how it ends up feeling – and, so, it's more of, maybe, an intellectual exercise.

Where I think it becomes tricky is when we bring the emotion into that. And I know that as a business owner, I've experienced that firsthand. I'm a sole trader, so I am my business! And because of, actually, the lack of data you sometimes get - yes, you get feedback from clients sometimes, but a lot of time you don't - there's no one there who's going to do your appraisal; there's no one who's going to give you a promotion.

And so, sometimes, money is the only measurable bit of data - and that can feel like the measure of success. And, actually, what I realised over time was that that was a deeply unhelpful belief because it meant when business was going well, it was fine, but, also, it could always be better.

And when business wasn't going so well, whether it was because of decisions I made or external factors that were affecting my business, actually, that was having a real impact on how I saw myself and my value.

And so, for me, it's been really important to almost bring a bit of distance between me as a person and me and my business - because when I see them as the same, that is not the healthiest place to be!

Simon

:: 07:27

Picking up on something you said there, you talked about your value, and I was thinking in my head, ‘How do you measure a person's worth?’

And this has been tackled from a number of different angles. You could break the person down into their constituent elements and try and price the human body - and it's not very much!

We often talk about time - you know, what's the value of your time? And that can be measured in terms of: if you could take your salary and convert it into an hourly rate, how much do you get paid per hour? What's the national minimum wage? Are you earning more than that? What's your hourly rate compared to mine?

And yet for so many people, time is such a poor metric of value when you put a price tag on it.

I read recently, and certainly experienced, actually, it's not how much time you give to something, it's your experience, it's your knowledge, it's your abilities, it's what you bring to the table in that moment.

There's a great story I've heard of a trainee locksmith who comes to someone's house, and they've locked themselves out.

And he tries to open the lock that way and it doesn't work. And he gets another bit of kit out. He tries it - it doesn't work, and he starts to sweat because he's under pressure and they're panicking and he tries this bit and, eventually, after half an hour, he gets in and he opens the door and they're so relieved.

He says, ‘Look, I'm going to have to charge you £100.’

‘That's brilliant. You got me in. I'm so grateful. Thank you very, very much!’

And they're all happy. But, like twenty years later, the same locksmith comes along and he opens the door in ten seconds flat.

If we ignore inflation, ‘Hey, that's £100.’

‘What do you mean, it's £100? You only took ten seconds - that's not worth it!’

And it's a lifetime of experience that is condensed into that moment. And, so, when we measure ourselves based upon a number, we are ignoring so much more of the detail of our lives. And we begin to compress a person's worth and a person's value into a price tag, which can be really dangerous. Certainly, for the superstars, the sports people, the actors, that's how they operate - but not for me and you, Bex, most of the time!

Bex

:: 09:24

Well, hopefully not! And I think in our society, a lot of where value is placed, whether spoken or unspoken, is on our output: What can we produce? How much does it matter to someone else?

And that's often why stay at home parents can feel less valuable because they have nothing to - quote, unquote - show for their day.

Obviously, we know that being a stay at home parent is one of the most important jobs that you can do and, so, I think within the whole conversation about talking about money, the first thing we need to remember is that money isn't the be all and end all, and that our worth is so much more than the market value rate, so to speak.

Simon

:: 10:07

Picking up on that point of stay at home parents, we live in a society where still most commonly it's the female of a couple who ends up doing most of the childcare. And that I think is one of the inputs into the big pay gender gap.

We're not valuing the time spent at home - whether that means it's time raising the next generation, whether it's freeing up the other person in the relationship to go and work - there isn't that same equality of understanding.

There seems to be price tag thinking - look, I can do a job and earn this much, so I should be the person going out and working; you can only earn that much – therefore, you should be the one who stays at home.

And it just leads to a perception of inequality or of competition or of self-worth that is probably mostly unhealthy. And, yet, it seems to be where we've got to as a society, or at least a western culture society.

Bex

:: 11:01

And it's fascinating, isn't it, because, then, part of the reason that women maybe have less experience is because they've taken a break to, at the very least, have a child, and recover from that - never mind, if they've then taken further time off to look after that child!

But before I get on my soapbox, I am going to steer us in a slightly different direction and talk about, actually, the anxiety that money can create, because I think a lot of us probably live with a level of worry and concern about money, no matter how much or how little we are making. And I think it's because we feel dependent and beholding to money for so much. We need money to secure our living situation, whether that's a mortgage or renting; we need money to buy food and clothes and our basic needs.

And, so, it can feel a bit like, oh my goodness, if I am not making enough, how am I going to provide for myself, my loved ones?

Simon, how do we pay attention to that in a way that means that we are stewarding money well and prioritising correctly without being consumed by that?

Simon

:: 12:17

Herein, I think, lies one of the reasons why money becomes that taboo topic, that uncomfortable topic, because it leads us down an avenue where we have to really think quite hard about uncomfortable topics and we prefer not to do that – so, let's just not open the door!

There's a famous tagline that I really do not like and it's from the advertising campaign that's been going around the world for fifty years now from L' Oreal Paris. And the phrase is, ‘Because you're worth it!’

And as I say that, you can just imagine this beautifully coiffured lady just flicking her hair because she's worth it. There's a sense in which society has created expectations of a standard to which we should expect or aspire, and it places it on us.

And I say that because if we compare ourselves in the UK in twenty twenty-five to the rest of the world, what comes to mind? Do you think, in your mind: ‘I’ll compare myself to all those rich Americans who are raking it in and having a lovely lifestyle on the beach in the sunshine,’ or do you compare yourself to the refugees living in slums who have been evicted due to war? Or do you think of huge swathes of the world who live a hand to mouth lifestyle - they're farming just to stay alive; they don't have any, or many, of the luxuries that we do.

We are a fantastically wealthy society - almost the poorest amongst us are still very wealthy compared to the vast majority of the world.

And, yet, we have this expectation to aspire to a little bit more than we already have.

In fact, there was some research done many years ago now, asking a whole swathe of people, based upon their current level of income, ‘How much more do you think you would need to have to be happy?’ The implicit statement was, ‘You're not happy yet,’ and almost in every situation the answer was, ‘Well, a bit more than I currently have.’

If you're earning £20,000 a year, maybe you'd like 30, but if you're only 30, maybe you want 40. And it never stops. If you're earning a million pounds, well, actually, maybe one and a half million would be quite nice!

And, so, we have this somehow inbuilt - maybe put upon us - challenge of satisfaction with what we have: ‘I've got enough. I've got more than enough. I am blessed and privileged to be in this position and therefore, actually, maybe I should be thinking about what other people need and not what I need.’

But that seems so, so countercultural that when you come across people like that, we're surprised rather than that is our normal expectation.

Bex

:: 14:57

And I think this would be an interesting point in the conversation to bring some scripture into this. So, what does the Bible speak into in terms of this topic? And the thing I was thinking about, just as you were rounding up there, was the concept of contentment.

And, so, does the Bible say, ‘Oh, just keep going, keep going - get as much as you possibly can, then you'll be closer to Jesus and everything will be a good time.’

I think quite possibly the opposite is true. We can see that in Philippians 4, 12 and 13 where Paul talks about, ‘I know what it is to be in need and I know what it is to have plenty. I've learned the secret of being content in any and every situation - whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all this through Him who gives me strength.'

And we also have Psalm 37, 16-17: ‘Better the little that the righteous have than the wealth of many wicked. For the power of the wicked will be broken, but the Lord upholds the righteous,’… and so on and so forth. And yet no matter how many times we read this, that sense of actually being content with what we have sometimes feels impossible to achieve.

Simon

:: 16:13

Contentment is an emotion. It's a feeling, and it's probably not the one that comes to mind when the topic of money is raised. You mentioned it earlier on, Bex - you talked about anxiety, how perhaps we can live with this deep-rooted anxiety: either, ‘I haven't got enough money; I need more just to get by,’ or, ‘Well, I seem to have enough money but am I doing the right thing with it? Do other people look at me and wonder and criticise why I do the things I do with my money?’

Maybe there's an inadequacy around, ‘Well, I don't think my parents or my teachers or my friends really helped educate me in how to manage money. I'm just winging it. I'm going through life trying to make as few mistakes as possible and probably failing, but I don't know because who do I talk to about this thing because no one's opening up this conversation.’

And if you've got lots of money, actually you can have anxiety around not losing it or paying too much tax or who gets it next.

The anxiety never really goes away. And I think we come back to again, a biblical phrase that we know is often misquoted: ‘The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil,’ and that's 1 Timothy 6:10.

So, I think society thinks money is evil. It's not evil - it's just a thing. It's a thing that you use and it can emphasise the attitude with which you're using it - if you approach money from a tight fisted, greedy attitude, the more you have, almost the more tight fisted and greedy you will get; but if you're open hearted and generous and you have more money, then you can do more with it.

So, as we've said a hundred times probably already on the podcast, money is a tool that we use; but that isn't how many people actually use money. They use it as a measure; they use it as a scorecard. They compete; they try and judge their success against others - you know, keeping up with the Joneses: ‘Have they got a bigger car than us? Must get a new car. Where do they go on holiday?’ - which we can now see on social media – ‘Well, we should go somewhere better.’

And, yet, what we can fuel can be either a debt-ridden lifestyle of competition or an all-consuming anxiety that we're doing something wrong because we don't have as much money as everybody else and we're not doing the right things with it.

Bex

:: 18:31

And so, Simon, I don't know about everyone else listening to this, but I am feeling like I'm sitting in that uncomfortable spot of, ‘What do I think about money?’ and, ‘How much do I control it and how much does it control me?’

And, so, rather than leaving people just feeling, ‘Ugh!’, how can we equip ourselves and those around us to have conversations about money, then maybe begin to tackle some of those feelings?

I know we've done a whole season before on conversations about money, so that is a great starting point, but how would you condense down some of that into a few top tips?

Simon

:: 19:08

The thing that came to mind just as we were speaking here was tackling the topic of money head on is quite confrontational - people get defensive. So, how do we talk around the topic of money to help free up the ability to talk about the topic of money?

And the kind of things that I might do in a client meeting where we're talking about money, for the first time potentially, with a prospective client is, I might say, ‘What are the key lessons that your parents taught you about money?’ I'm not asking them how they manage their money; I'm making it more distant: ‘What did you observe your parents doing when it came to money?’

Or we could ask this very question, ‘Hey, why do you think we find it quite uncomfortable to talk about money?’

And, in that moment, you're giving people permission to express their feelings and their thoughts about this topic without talking about the topic itself. We're not saying, ‘Hey, how much do you earn?’ or, ‘How much is your mortgage?’ or, ‘How do you go about buying your car - have you borrowed money for it or have you bought it outright?’ - all of which can make people feel guilty or condemned or greedy because they behave differently than we do.

But we can open up the topic without attacking them, or the topic itself.

Bex

:: 20:21

And I think one thing I found incredibly helpful is having a bit of transparency.

For me, that started in business in terms of I made the decision to put ‘Starts from’ packages on my website because I felt that was important for transparency, but also to give people an idea of where I sit in the market and to give them information so they can make an informed decision. And I think that's really bled through into other parts of my life. I know I am less good at spending money on high ticket items; I'm OK at spending it on lots of lower ticket items.

And so, actually, in wedding planning, and particularly the wedding dress, I knew obviously I was going to be making that decision without my fiancé there and, so, I had to have a conversation where I said, ‘Hey, how much do we actually want to spend on this? Because if I don't hear this from you, I'm going to struggle to spend that money,’ and actually, happily, ends up being a lot less than what we discussed!

But, for me, having that conversation first, empowered me to be able to make a better decision than making one really from a place of fear of, ‘Oh goodness, that's a lot of money!’.

Simon

:: 21:30

I just love the idea of having a conversation with Bex starter package: one cup of coffee, you get a half hour conversation; coffee and cake might give you 45 minutes; coffee and a sandwich, is that an hour's conversation?

And, actually, we can play this game. I'm just thinking about the situation I'm in right now. My eldest son is going to be soon learning to drive in a few months and there are other kids in the street and some of the parents have had to go and buy cars for their kids to learn in because the car that the family has is totally inappropriate. But we can begin to escalate, you know, ‘Oh, you bought that? I'm going to buy that. I'm going to buy one of those.’

I kind of want to de-escalate this. I'm going to not compete. You want to hang out with me, that's fine. We're going to go and have a walk down the beach and I'll take a water bottle - I'm a free date in that moment!

It says it in the Bible as well: don't invite your friends round to dinner because they're just going to invite you back - you know they can pay you back.

Instead, invite those who can't afford to pay you back.

I think we need to start addressing money from a very different perspective. Certainly, from our perspective as a faith and finance podcast, how would God have us use these resources? They're not ours, for our own benefit. They're ours to be used for the kingdom, for those around us.

And that, again, opens up a conversation around money. And I'm hoping, Bex, for episodes and episodes to come, we will keep having these kind of releasing and accountable conversations.

Bex

:: 22:53

I hope so, because personally, I find it really helpful, never mind anyone else!

But more important than whether I think it's helpful is whether you think it's helpful. And, so, if you have thoughts on this, if you have particular concerns or reasons that, actually, you don't want to talk about money, you could send us an email. We can make it anonymous if there's a discussion you would like to have without shopping yourself.

But, also, maybe off the back of one of these episodes, you start a conversation about money, however big or small. We would love to hear about that and to celebrate that with you, too.

And, so, you will find all the ways to get in touch with us in our show notes.

Simon

:: 23:33

And that ends our episode today. Join us next time for episode six, which is ‘Money and Me: The Great Giveaway’. We will be here. Hope you are too!

Bex

:: 23:42

Sounds intriguing! See you then.

That's it for this episode of ‘Where Your Treasure Is…’

Simon

:: 23:47

Thanks for listening. Let's keep learning to be good stewards of all we've been given.

Bex

:: 23:51

See you next time.